It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register please click here...

 
Go Back [M] > Madshrimps > Articles & Howto's
AMD ingnots, sliced "TBread" with the crusts cut off AMD ingnots, sliced "TBread" with the crusts cut off
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


AMD ingnots, sliced "TBread" with the crusts cut off
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 26th May 2003, 17:04   #31
Madshrimp
 
jmke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: 7090/Belgium
Posts: 78,611
jmke has disabled reputation
Default

I think what you wrote is based on other people's "facts" and added you own conclusion to that so some parts of what you stated cannot be agrued with , with you.. because you were not the one writing those facts

we are all here to learn

the guys over at Anandtech sure have some great comments on the article, go give it a read, they seem eager to answer some questions that might lead to everyone finding the whole truth
__________________
jmke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2003, 17:52   #32
Dial_Up
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Liquid3D I've been postulating theories since my passion for philosophy was piqued 15 years ago..
If you are just looking for a "conspiracy" or a "plot", then you have to mention this in your introduction that this was the reason why you started thinking about it. Now it's like you have found some inside information and you made an article about it.
I don't criticize the article, but you have the make that point clear.

and, eh, in my humble opinion, hardware isn't really about conspiracys and philosophy, but only Science and Economics that matter...
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2003, 17:56   #33
Madshrimp
 
jmke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: 7090/Belgium
Posts: 78,611
jmke has disabled reputation
Default

hardware is about money. they don't much about the technical side of things, as longs as it delivers the $$$$

Quote:
I would like to see both companies work closer together to create a better and faster CPU, but thanks to capitalism this might never happen...

its really sad that we see these meager increases in speed just to get the $$$ :/
__________________
jmke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2003, 20:54   #34
Madshrimp
 
jmke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: 7090/Belgium
Posts: 78,611
jmke has disabled reputation
Default

just to keep all the info in the same thread, here are some of the very usefull responses provided by the people over @ anandtech

Quote:
Well, for one thing, the article seems to imply that AMD "aims" for different speeds - e.g. some chips they hope come out at 2400+, some they hope come out at 3000+. That would be stupid on their part, since it costs them the same amount to produce a 3000+ and a 1700+. When you fab chips, you "aim" for perfection, and it doesn't happen - you get a normal distribution around some speed grade, and you sell each chip as the one that will make you the most money.

Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's been much controversy over Austin's (excellent) Tbred-B guide (from LowYat.net) which thoroughly describes the origin of every series of alphabetic, and numerals in all three lines of code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All the cores on a wafer are the same design.

The reason you can overclock is that AMD tests the chips in very hostile environments to make sure that a cheapo computer (crappy power, crappy cooling, etc.) running an AMD processor will be stable even in the Sahara desert in summer. The maximum die temperature is rated at what, 90-95C? Most users keep their processors significantly cooler than this, so they can operate at higher speeds.

edit: A sample size of 100 really is not enough. Also, overclockers rarely test for true stability - many accept a crash once or twice per month and attribute it to something else. Reputable companies can't sell hardware that EVER crashes without help from "acts of god" (cosmic rays, cats, beverages, etc).

Quote:
But here are a few points:
If you are asking about the validity that "the 8th and 9th marks in the second line of the sticker describes the initial speed the processor was designed for"... Although I can't speak to the specifics of AMD's methods, I doubt this is true. As CTho stated, it would be silly for them to target certain speeds when manufacturing chips.
AMD uses 200mm (8") wafers
The .13µ process uses 248nm lithography, not 157nm as the article stated. And actually... it's been reported that Intel won't even be using 157nm for the .045µ process.
EUVL is nowhere near ready to use, let alone being currently used on the .13µ process.
Since the wafer is "stepped" under the photo optics, there is (in theory) no difference between patterning a wafer in the center or the edge. What I mean is... In AMD's case, (most likely) only six die are patterned at a time. The wafer then moves over, and the next six die are exposed under the UV light. This is repeated until the entire wafer is patterned. This is what is known as "stepping."

Quote:
Constructive Criticism: You might want to re-word the paragraph that starts with "And as we surpass the 157nm process..." I (and probably many others?) read into it that EUVL is being used currently. The whole 157nm part confused me, as well.
I'll have to disagree with the fact that 157nm tools won't be ready when Intel is ready for them, so Intel has found ways to make due with a previous technology is an example of "nefarious Capitolistic behavior". I guess I'm not sure what you expect Intel to do... Hold off on advancing their own technologies to wait for the vendors to catch up?
jmke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2003, 21:15   #35
Liquid3D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

jmke I think you misunderstand my retort at Anandtech. I welcome the criticism, it's the condenscending manner which I feel is inappropriate. I'm not deferring all criticisms to the following attitude; "It's all Austin's idea's, criticize him not me..."

What I'm saying is why did this person, choose not to criticize Austin's TBred guide when it was released months ago? We've all been speculating about it, and all of a sudden it's "so wrought with inaccuracies" as to be "funny," and even "unworthy" of another persons time? Well he took the time to be insultive did he not?

It's apparent to me you have a lot of respect for Anand Lai Shimpi as he does study EE at North Carolina tech, and I joined Anandtech a while ago, but didn't necessarily find it enganging. Considering your number of posts there, perhaps you haven't either? But in so far as genuflecting in the presence of someone because they claim to work at the Intel 130nm fab facility is silly. I'd had more respect for him if he had shown simple respect. Otherwise I wouldn't care if the person responding to my article was a member of Scandia Labs, and the inventor EUVL. This does not justify sarcasm and condescension. I don't care what a person's credentials are, if they cannot interact in manner befitting of their intellect. I bet he doesn't talk to his supervisor that way? I may not know everything, or anything about photolithography, comparitively, but I know a whole lot about psychology, behaviorism, displacement, projection, and where these attitudes derive from.

I also happen to know a lot about anthropology, sociology, and the sociological implications of economics. Of course we as consumers are victimized by capitalism, but what's frustrating, is we don't have to be. A business can be run profitably any number of ways. In fact what I do know about IC manufacturing, is it's impact on the environment is detrimental. That's one reason why there are so few fab facilities in the US. It's much more costly to process, and dispose of the photoresist chemicals here then almost anywhere else. Labor is another reason. Intel could remain a profitable company by relocating all it's manufacturing facilites here, that supply the US market. But when individuals (and a business is composed of people) feel a need to have five houses instead of three, retire with 500,000 shares instead of 100,000 that's called greed. Capitalism and greed however are not necessarily synonomous. In fact if Intel, and AMD chose to invest in LADI, instead of EUVL, they would not only eliminate huncreds of steps from the manufacturing process, they'd eschew the caustic chemicals, cut production times, and shrink the die size beyond EUVL. Why don't they do this? Habit, change, and complacency. So when someone who works in a fabrication facility, begins spouting economic theory, your welcome to hang on his every keystroke. But what sounds foolish to him, in my postulations, may sound foolish to me in his. And for the same reasons. I do not instantly subscribe to his version of the truth simply "because." I didn't imply there was some dep conspiracy, but hpw long have you been in these forums and had peoiple in the business clarify issues? I find their rarely doing so. It's becoming obvious I'm wrong about the "missing steppings" I never thought I was right, only that it may be a possibility. Now because of criticism, I'm learning it's most likely not possible. But that's not to say it didn't happen because neither you, nor I, nor the "expert" at Anand was either.
I can be wrong gracefully, I only wish people could be critical in a similiar fashion. I know it's about money, and that's very sad. Are you willing to embrace thsoe feelings, even momentarily? I am, and when someone so abrubtly rubs it in my face, I think that's the appropriate time to do so.

EDIT: I have to go back there, and respond again as from the quotes you just posted; this person is now, taking the time to respond in a constructive manner. And that's all I ask. What's frustrating is I'd love to add some comments to the article to avoid further misunderstanding, but once it's been printed, how do i do this?
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2003, 21:29   #36
Madshrimp
 
jmke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: 7090/Belgium
Posts: 78,611
jmke has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
It's apparent to me you have a lot of respect for Anand Lai Shimpi as he does study EE at North Carolina tech,
uhm? what where?
If I were to be a "fan" of him, I would have had more then just 9 posts on his forum

Quote:
genuflecting
I just like to keep it very polite, polite = gay?

I just dont want to start any dispute over there, I surely felt bad when he said "where to start , I surely cant mention all" , and was ready to answer in another way then I did.. but I also thought "whats the use"?

I'm just trying to help you out in finding answer we are looking for, not everyone seems to be helpfull right away, as in, what he stated also, lots of people have claimed certain theories to be factual while they are not at all.. he didnt read the article in depth first time around, as you have mentioned in the article that these were presumtions

I hope you dont take offence when I try to get some reactions on your writings from different corners on the web.

Quote:
I can be wrong gracefully, I only wish people could be critical in a similiar fashion
AMEN! I had a feeling of disgust when I read the comment @ tweakers.net

instead of just saying "I think he was wrong on those points because a.. b...c.." , no.. he had to start of with "what a load of bullcrap"

really can tick someone of, I find it very you remain cool all along

I've seen the nick Liquid3D around for some time now, as I read on XS, both [M] and XS are homes away from home. what is your real home forum. www.ninjamicros.com ?
__________________
jmke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2003, 21:30   #37
Madshrimp
 
jmke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: 7090/Belgium
Posts: 78,611
jmke has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Liquid3D
What's frustrating is I'd love to add some comments to the article to avoid further misunderstanding, but once it's been printed, how do i do this? [/b]
send the changes that need to be done to jmke@madshrimps.be
and I'll fix them right away!
jmke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2003, 23:58   #38
Madshrimp
 
jmke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: 7090/Belgium
Posts: 78,611
jmke has disabled reputation
Default

hey even RobT seems to be providing usefull info



more @ http://www.madshrimps.be/upload/jmke/tbread/
will translate the comments tommorow
jmke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2003, 04:56   #39
Liquid3D
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I apologize jmke you have been my staunchest supporter, and you've been investing as much time in this as I have, maybe even more considering your moderating.

I really am sorry. I have nearly 100 emails daily with criticisms about spelling to punctuation. I don't mind, but example Irregardless is a word of the English language, it's in the Websters New World Dictionary, as well as others. And this is just one of many.I have replied to every email. And when wrong I promptly admit it, and even thank the person. It's becomes hurtful when people malicsiously attack my efforts reducing it to pure dirt. Which ultimately I don't mind, becuase without grains of sand there'd be no silicon. Hence there'd be nothing to even argue over, such is the cycle of life. It's just that I am human and attemtpting to be "open" leaves one vulnerable by defeifnition, ergo I 've become hypersensitive. So initially it's hurtful, and I react. I'm working on this.

However your certainly not someone who deserves that type of response. My goal for the next few days is not to apologize as much, Which means I'm going to make a concerted effort NOT to overreact, and remembering who my freinds are! And I've been taught, even if criticism comes from a malicious place, I can still learn from it. Thank's I'm working on some amendments to add at the bottom of the article.
  Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2003, 08:16   #40
Madshrimp
 
jmke's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: 7090/Belgium
Posts: 78,611
jmke has disabled reputation
Default

Liquid3D you have made a extraordinary entrance at the [M] forum , your dedication to finding out the true story is something lots of people would be jealous of

Quote:
Originally posted by Liquid3D
Thank's I'm working on some amendments to add at the bottom of the article.
aha! read this after I replied to your email, answers my questions
jmke is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AMD Launches 45nm Triple Core Phenom II with DDR3 support jmke WebNews 0 9th February 2009 09:26
AMD Announces Widespread Availability and Broad Global OEM Support for New Quad-Core jmke WebNews 0 13th November 2008 16:17
AMD GAME! Enables Console-like Simplicity for Mainstream PCs jmke WebNews 9 19th May 2008 20:51
AMD Introduces ‘AMD Business Class’, Designed With Business in Mind jmke WebNews 0 28th April 2008 09:33
AMD Launches World’s First x86 Triple-Core Processors jmke WebNews 0 27th March 2008 15:16
AMD To Cut HD 3650 & 3850 Prices In Early March jmke WebNews 2 29th February 2008 02:03
AMD to cut FX-70 prices jmke WebNews 0 6th December 2006 15:09
AMD Introduces Three New Dual-Core AMD Opteron™ Processors jmke WebNews 0 12th March 2006 19:25
AMD Introduces Line of Low-Power, High-Performance AMD Geode Embedded x86 Processors Sidney WebNews 0 24th May 2004 06:10
Amd Reports Fourth Quarter And Annual Results jmke WebNews 0 30th January 2004 14:47

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 20:07.


Powered by vBulletin® - Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO