AMD ingnots, sliced "TBread" with the crusts cut off

23rd May 2003, 19:24

Quote:

Recently AMD enthusiasts (overclockers) have had a smile across their faces the length of which must have wifes and girlfriends wondering. Their new-found mistress; "lower-speed" Thoroughbred-B's, and their "double overclock" potential. Almost mythical in overclocking circles (prior to phase-change cooling) doubling a processor's default speed is the apotheosis for the enthusiast. So where did these sweethearts come from? And why have I chose the title "AMD ingots sliced "TBread" with the crusts cut off"? Buckle up, it's going to a bumpy ride!

http://www.madshrimps.be/gotoartik.php?articID=84

I want to thank everyone whom contributed by printing their full sticker code, and especially thank Austin @ LowYat.net. Without such experts (enthusiasts) willing to take risks sharing their hypotheses, this would be a boring hobby.

23rd May 2003, 19:36

very interesting, great article!
explains a lot how that strange AMD rating works

mod: can you explain why the colors of the cpu differ? I've had a brown and a green 1700+ AIUGA through my hands, so why do the batches have different colors?

RichBa5tard · 23rd May 2003, 20:30

Quote:

In this question lies the answer to the mystery. Yes, I beleive do believe AMD "binned" the cores from those area's of the Wafer. Due to a possible lense misalignment, or some anomaly during the multiple Photolithographic/etching cycles, the outer wafer cores were rendered unusable.

Don't shoot me for making a wild guess, but perhaps AMD doesn't "cut the crust" because of technical but economical issues. Imagine if they would try to produce CPU's from those outer crust "K" and "R" sections, and only 50% would pass the tests. Would the other 50% (which is being sold for what, 30$ a piece per 1000?) justify all the manufacturing costs involved? The "good quality" center wafre JxxxB's are already being sold for way to little money, perhaps it's just cheaper for AMD to throw those "crusts" away or recycle them.

Very interesting read, especially the first paragraph. Now I know a little bit more about microprocessor fabrication.

By the way, thanks for adjusting the blue into gray.

23rd May 2003, 21:22

Thank you guy's. And "shoot you" heck no, I'll thank you! Part of the reason "I put myself out there" is to learn from my mistakes. that's not to say, I start with unvalidated premises, but at some point the definition of a hypothesis (an educated guess) will be tested.

I didn't consider the economics from that perspective. In fact that's where I kinda rushed things. I couldn't find the article I read on lithography where it discussess the voltage testing, and how every piece cannot be tested due to cost. But that article would have corrborated your theory. I wonder then, at what point AMD made the decision to "bin" the remaining wafers, or crust. (God I hope I haven't coined a phrase, and it's "crust").

jmke · 25th May 2003, 01:53

great work Liquid3D, thanks for sharing this info with the community

!

RichBa5tard · 25th May 2003, 03:32

Liquid3D, how did you come to the conclusion the "K" and "R" chips are made from cores close to the end of the wafer, and not just a low quality wafer?

Is it a logical deduction, or is it a fact?

jmke · 25th May 2003, 04:27

Quote:

Chris Tom @ www.amdzone.com :

.13 micron equals 130 nanometers. I'm not certain what 157nm comes from.

25th May 2003, 18:42

Richba5tard I came to the conclusion based upon Austin's guide over at http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=612 the reason I give his guide so much credit, were his theory (at least in part) was (I beleive) based upon an inside source at AMD's Singapore Fab. How much, and which information is attributed to that "contact" I've no knowledge, except to say the "laser marker ID" was definately attributed to the "contact".
And from Xbit; http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/dis...322034857.html
where they claim the following on their site, which they layout in a "5 Step" process;
"The first five letters in the line deal with process information (JIUHB in our case). The first letter among five presumably informs us about the location of the core on the wafer. Closer the core was to the centre of the wafer; better overclocking potential is, as the core seems to have more potential for higher speeds. Lower letter is better, as it means that the die was closer to the centre. In general, "A" is better than "J", while K is typically worse than "J", but still has more potential than "R", which is the worst"

Out of curiosity, would you consider this plagerism? I like XBitlabs don't get me wrong, but basing this "5 Step" process to TBred ID, there's whole paragraghs cut, and pasted from Austin's Guide. That was the reason I gave so much credit to Austin at lowyat.net, without whom I'd have little to extrapolate from. My hypothesis was based on the "K -R" steppings being absent, HIS (Austin's) theory was based upon the steppings themselves.

Also jmke I followed that quote you placed in there but cannot find where this question is posited? Funny you should post that quote, because I'm almost finished with my next article which focuses on Intel the industry, and the 157nm Lithography process. That particular figure 157nm, is a measurement of the upcoming ultraviolet-light wave-length, which will image (or etch) lines in the .09 micron (90nm), .06 micron (64nm) through .04 micron (45nm) core die-shrinks. Currently DUV, Deep Unltraviolet Lithography (possibly augmented lense 248nm wave-length unltraviolet light) is used to image the .13 micron (130nm) process.

DUR0N · 25th May 2003, 19:30

mebby it helps

jmke · 25th May 2003, 19:39

"That particular figure 157nm, is a measurement of the upcoming ultraviolet-light wave-length, which will image (or etch) lines in the .09 micron (90nm), .06 micron (64nm) through .04 micron (45nm) core die-shrinks. Currently DUV, Deep Unltraviolet Lithography (possibly augmented lense 248nm wave-length unltraviolet light) is used to image the .13 micron (130nm) process.
"

was the answer I was looking for :

25th May 2003, 01:53	#5
jmke Madshrimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: 7090/Belgium Posts: 79,021	great work Liquid3D, thanks for sharing this info with the community ! __________________

25th May 2003, 03:32	#6
RichBa5tard [M] Reviewer/HWBot ***** Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,344	Liquid3D, how did you come to the conclusion the "K" and "R" chips are made from cores close to the end of the wafer, and not just a low quality wafer? Is it a logical deduction, or is it a fact? __________________ HTPC (mac osx): Mac Mini \| Core Duo 1.6Ghz \| 2GB DDR2 \| 26\" TFT Development (mac osx): Macbook \| Core 2 2.0Ghz \| 4GB DDR2 \| 250GB HD Games (win xp): E2160 @ 2.4Ghz \| HD3850 OC \| Asrock 4coredual-vsta \| 2GB DDR2

25th May 2003, 19:39	#10
jmke Madshrimp Join Date: May 2002 Location: 7090/Belgium Posts: 79,021	"That particular figure 157nm, is a measurement of the upcoming ultraviolet-light wave-length, which will image (or etch) lines in the .09 micron (90nm), .06 micron (64nm) through .04 micron (45nm) core die-shrinks. Currently DUV, Deep Unltraviolet Lithography (possibly augmented lense 248nm wave-length unltraviolet light) is used to image the .13 micron (130nm) process. " was the answer I was looking for : __________________

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23rd May 2003, 19:36	#2
TeuS Posts: n/a	very interesting, great article! explains a lot how that strange AMD rating works mod: can you explain why the colors of the cpu differ? I've had a brown and a green 1700+ AIUGA through my hands, so why do the batches have different colors?

23rd May 2003, 21:22	#4
Liquid3D Posts: n/a	Thank you guy's. And "shoot you" heck no, I'll thank you! Part of the reason "I put myself out there" is to learn from my mistakes. that's not to say, I start with unvalidated premises, but at some point the definition of a hypothesis (an educated guess) will be tested. I didn't consider the economics from that perspective. In fact that's where I kinda rushed things. I couldn't find the article I read on lithography where it discussess the voltage testing, and how every piece cannot be tested due to cost. But that article would have corrborated your theory. I wonder then, at what point AMD made the decision to "bin" the remaining wafers, or crust. (God I hope I haven't coined a phrase, and it's "crust").

25th May 2003, 18:42	#8
Liquid3D Posts: n/a	Richba5tard I came to the conclusion based upon Austin's guide over at http://forum.lowyat.net/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=612 the reason I give his guide so much credit, were his theory (at least in part) was (I beleive) based upon an inside source at AMD's Singapore Fab. How much, and which information is attributed to that "contact" I've no knowledge, except to say the "laser marker ID" was definately attributed to the "contact". And from Xbit; http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/dis...322034857.html where they claim the following on their site, which they layout in a "5 Step" process; "The first five letters in the line deal with process information (JIUHB in our case). The first letter among five presumably informs us about the location of the core on the wafer. Closer the core was to the centre of the wafer; better overclocking potential is, as the core seems to have more potential for higher speeds. Lower letter is better, as it means that the die was closer to the centre. In general, "A" is better than "J", while K is typically worse than "J", but still has more potential than "R", which is the worst" Out of curiosity, would you consider this plagerism? I like XBitlabs don't get me wrong, but basing this "5 Step" process to TBred ID, there's whole paragraghs cut, and pasted from Austin's Guide. That was the reason I gave so much credit to Austin at lowyat.net, without whom I'd have little to extrapolate from. My hypothesis was based on the "K -R" steppings being absent, HIS (Austin's) theory was based upon the steppings themselves. Also jmke I followed that quote you placed in there but cannot find where this question is posited? Funny you should post that quote, because I'm almost finished with my next article which focuses on Intel the industry, and the 157nm Lithography process. That particular figure 157nm, is a measurement of the upcoming ultraviolet-light wave-length, which will image (or etch) lines in the .09 micron (90nm), .06 micron (64nm) through .04 micron (45nm) core die-shrinks. Currently DUV, Deep Unltraviolet Lithography (possibly augmented lense 248nm wave-length unltraviolet light) is used to image the .13 micron (130nm) process.

25th May 2003, 19:30	#9
DUR0N Member Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 1,543	mebby it helps