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-   -   linux revolution? (http://www.madshrimps.be/vbulletin/f14/linux-revolution-3598/)

RichBa5tard 14th December 2003 17:39

linux revolution?
 
First off all, I don't want this thread to become a MS <> GNU/Linux flamewar. Any critic without arguments will be removed on sight!

Who here hasn't given linux a shot? I must admit - as a informatics student - I waited a long time to try out linux, but oh boy, now that i did i really love it! The first month you're 'playing' with linux distro's you're going to have some annoying moments (especially if you have exotic hardware), but after that you will never want to switch back... well, it least i don't. : )

For those who haven't tried it, what's keeping you back? For those who did but switched back to windows. why? Have you got a legal Win / Office license?

If it's your first time using linux, i would *highly* recommend using a package like mandrake, suse or redhat ( /fedora). They might not be faster (or even be slower) than "better" linux distro's, chances of you having a running linux system within the hour are large.

After you think you know the basics and have some experience with the distro's mentioned above, try Debian or Gentoo. They might require a lot more effort to install / tweak, but it does pay off! A tweaked gentoo install is notacibly faster!

Most your popular tools have a good opensource alternative:
msn > gaim
outlook > evolution
ms office > openoffice 1.1 (fully compatible)
ie > mozilla (firebird), ...
dx games > nope :(
opengl games > yes (unreal clones, quake clones)
....

Only if you're a hardcore gamer linux isn't a good alternative... there's no dx support as far as i know. : /

As GNU / Linux have evolved exponantially the last 5 years, do you think this will bring MS in problems (as their next OS is not due for a few more years)?

jmke 14th December 2003 18:09

The main reason I don't use linux is because of the almost non existent cross-format support when it comes to file sharing & security. I have a multimedia PC with a R8500 AIW , the only way I can make DV firewire to work in Adobe Premier, while watching television on the desktop and a movie through TV-out on my TV is by using Windows.

the support of Linux is also something that hasn't quite caught up yet with M$, the main reason I think that most workstations out there are running Microsoft OS's.

OpenOffice runs also on M$ OS, so you only need to get that XP/2000 license.

up until Windows 98/ME, linux had the advantage of being a fast/robust operating system. But with the launch of Windows 2000 microsoft has taken the home market again , and the XP followup only increases its standard as the most all-around OS out there at this moment.

BlackRabbit 14th December 2003 18:11

I use Linux (SlackWare 9.1 ATM) for my servers, but still use W2k for the clients.. Why? Because most of the clients are used for gaming. Simple as that. For my servers I choose Linux because I do notice performance-increasings in comparison to W2K machines..
Especially my FTP is much faster and more stable then it used to be! (Linux SlackWare 9.1 + ProFTPd <-> W2K (Server) + Raiden).

Alse the costs of the software (0€ <-> many hundred's of €'s) makes me go to Linux for my servers..

The only client I installed Linux on was my laptop (in those days, when I began with Linux, I used RedHat 8.0 ) but stopped using it because it made my harddisk spin down & up every 5seconds!
I don't need to say this is not healthy!

Windows is faster on my laptop then Redhat was BTW (grafical mode ofcourse), but that's normal..

Servers don't have any grafical stuff installeb BTW, always use the CLI for configuring everything.. Wich is also véry nice in Linux: you can do anything via network, through text-commands.. In windows you'd have to install software like PCAnywhere, needing a lot of bandwith etc.

jmke 14th December 2003 18:17

Windows file sharing performance between Windows 2000 server and Windows 2003 has increased significantly, give it a twirl if you have the chance.

The remote desktop of Windows XP/2003 is also something which offers great support and tech. availability. But it costs an arm & 2 legs to get it implemented.

- Windows 2003 Server license
- Citrix MetaFrame XP license
- Windows terminal client license for every person who connects
- Citrix client license for every person who connects
- Microsoft Exchange server license
- Microsoft Client access license for every person who connects to the exchange server
- MS Office license for every person who connects to the terminal server.


You are looking at a total cost of over €25.000 , and that's only the software side, you need 3-4 servers to run it "half-fluent", add another €25.000.

Linux is still the most cost effective solution if you bussines doesn't rely on any "MICROSOFT ONLY"-products

RichBa5tard 14th December 2003 19:35

Linux has a remote desktop feature too (implemented in kde 3.1), and i see no reason why samba doesn't fullfil your file sharing / security needs?

@BR: on my laptop redhat 9 feels equally fast as winxp, but now it's running gentoo and it feels way faster. : )

jmke 14th December 2003 20:04

Quote:

Originally posted by RichBa5tard
I see no reason why samba doesn't fullfil your file sharing / security needs?
I word: "DOMAINCONTOLLER"

RichBa5tard 14th December 2003 20:41

Do you use a domaincontroller at home??

jmke 14th December 2003 20:45

hmm wait.. what's my profession again?

:)

so yes I use a domain controller, and no, it can't work together with current linux distro's :/

BlackRabbit 14th December 2003 22:08

Quote:

Originally posted by jmke
hmm wait.. what's my profession again?

:)

so yes I use a domain controller, and no, it can't work together with current linux distro's :/

Soon I'll replace my W2K DC with a Linux DC, we'll see what I'll get out of it ;)

@RB: I might try Gentoo or something else again on my laptop, some day..

But now I need it too much everyday, so for now that's a no-go...

FreeStyler 15th December 2003 02:29

Tried linux (debian)
It installed great, and then I got the CLI.
LS is as far as my 1337 linux skills go. And without a decent linux manual around it got binned. I got 2, both suck. Just like my HTML book. I gave up of third party handbooks at that point. I need a good tutorial, some step by step linux lessons.
I know my windows too well to part (it took me a year to switch from DOS to win 95)

I'd love to do it, just don't have the time and patience to mess with it.

Bosw8er 15th December 2003 08:13

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeStyler
I need a good tutorial, some step by step linux lessons.
Just like the DOS-era ... start learning at the prompt :D

I tried linux, about 5 years ago, quit because i needed office-apps ... and the Linux one's couldn't cope with the Windows apps.

But i'll switch within a year or two. Open Office is a very well made Word/Excell substitute. Apache + MySQL + PHP is a superieur (understatement of the year) solution for MS Access.

Freeware = :banana:

FreeStyler 15th December 2003 12:48

Love the prompt, and I still do. The good part is that I have a plethora of PC's here, so I dedicated a stragler for linux. The intention was to put at least a webserver on it, and when I learned enough, to convert my internet router to linux.
However, the problem started with the how to of the webserver: download and install. and just how the f- do I do that?? Guess they tought everyone is guru. It took me 5 seconds to do the same on windows...

and freeware: I've bought one win95 upgrade in my early (and I admit, still stupid) PC years, and I've been downloading free windows upgrades ever since. It wasn't absolutely free, but I think it was a very good deal.

Bosw8er 15th December 2003 12:53

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeStyler
and freeware: I've bought one win95 upgrade in my early (and I admit, still stupid) PC years, and I've been downloading free windows upgrades ever since. It wasn't absolutely free, but I think it was a very good deal.
Didn't know XP was a free downloadable windows upgrade.

FreeStyler 15th December 2003 12:57

Just check the web, it's all over it.

jmke 15th December 2003 13:34

that doesn't make it officialy free :p

RichBa5tard 15th December 2003 14:08

freestyler, Debian is a great distro but one of the worst to learn linux. : )

Gentoo is duable if yuo stick to the (very well written) manual.

jmke 15th December 2003 14:47

Debian is a server OS, try Redhat/Suse if you want a workstation OS

FreeStyler 15th December 2003 15:23

It was for a server, linux for "workstation" use isn't up to par if you play games now and then.
I learned DOS the hard way, linux is only more of the same. But if you're rooted on dos/windows, and don't have the time to learn, it's just not happening.
And DOS is crystal clear compared to linux.

Nah I'll stick to messing with hardware for the moment, untill I got more time. Having a windows running (fairly) stable is just as much of an art as dealing with linux.

jmke 15th December 2003 16:57

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeStyler
It was for a server, .
:rolleyes:


you don't install Debian or Slackware as your first linux install. not done. no wonder you couldn't get anything to work.

try Redhat/Suse to get to know the Linux OS, and advance in the use of the CLI :)

FreeStyler 16th December 2003 01:00

I tried redhat WAAAY back (around the P200 era) didn't see a lot of difference in CLI mode, GUI however was different (gnome vs KDE) but still wasn't much use.

RichBa5tard 31st January 2004 23:16

The GNOME remote login works great! A pitty a 100MBs switch is not fast enought to stream uncompressed video's, but it's really usefull for programming / surfing / openoffice. : )

wutske 1st February 2004 09:48

I'v tryed Linux (Mandrake & Redhat), but I can't get the damned vid (R9600 pro) working because I need a newer XFree version (and I can't get succesfully updated :puke: ). WHen I've some more time, I'll try to get it working, but now, I stick to M$.

And I don't think M$ is in deep **** because of Linux. Most of the people can hardly work w/ that supereasy M$ stuff, how do u think they can work w/ Linux ?

Maddy 3rd February 2004 20:14

Tried linux several times, Redhat, Mandrake, Suse, Knoppix I even once bought suse 6.0 but right now I don't have it installed, but as soon as I have a free rig on which I can do anything without being worried to do something wrong I will install it for sure again.

piotke 3rd February 2004 20:43

dropped by at richy's place last week, and he gave me a complete demonstration of gentoo. Ubercool I must admit.

Will try it next week also

RichBa5tard 3rd February 2004 21:07

Quote:

Originally posted by piotke
dropped by at richy's place last week, and he gave me a complete demonstration of gentoo. Ubercool I must admit.

Will try it next week also

I'm already writing a Gentoo 4 dummies howto. ;)

piotke 3rd February 2004 21:12

woohoew :)

TeuS 3rd February 2004 21:24

Quote:

Originally posted by RichBa5tard

I'm already writing a Gentoo 4 dummies howto. ;)

excellent!

jmke 3rd March 2004 12:35

Official Gentoo-Linux-Zealot translator-o-matic

Gentoo Linux is an interesting new distribution with some great features. Unfortunately, it has attracted a large number of clueless wannabes who absolutely MUST advocate Gentoo at every opportunity.
Let's look at the language of these zealots, and find out what it really means...

"Gentoo makes me so much more productive."
"Although I can't use the box at the moment because it's compiling something, as it will be for the next five days, it gives me more time to check out the latest USE flags and potentially unstable optimisation settings."

"Gentoo is more in the spirit of open source!"
"Apart from Hello World in Pascal at school, I've never written a single program in my life or contributed to an open source project, yet staring at endless streams of GCC output whizzing by somehow helps me contribute to international freedom."

"I use Gentoo because it's more like the BSDs."
"Last month I tried to install FreeBSD on a well-supported machine, but the text-based installer scared me off. I've never used a BSD, but the guys on Slashdot say that it's l33t though, so surely I must be for using Gentoo."

"Heh, my system is soooo much faster after installing Gentoo."
"I've spent hours recompiling Fetchmail, X-Chat, gEdit and thousands of other programs which spend 99% of their time waiting for user input. Even though only the kernel and glibc make a significant difference with optimisations, and RPMs and .debs can be rebuilt with a handful of commands, my box MUST be faster. It's nothing to do with the fact that I've disabled all startup services and I'm running BlackBox instead of GNOME or KDE."

"...my Gentoo Linux workstation..."
"...my overclocked AMD eMachines box from PC World, and apart from the third-grade made-to-break components and dodgy fan..."

"You Red Hat guys must get sick of dependency hell..."
"I'm too stupid to understand that circular dependencies can be resolved by specifying BOTH .rpms together on the command line, and that problems hardly ever occur if one uses proper Red Hat packages instead of mixing SuSE, Mandrake and Joe's Linux packages together (which the system wasn't designed for)."

"All the other distros are soooo out of date."
"Constantly upgrading to the latest bleeding-edge untested software makes me more productive. Never mind the extensive testing and patching that Debian and Red Hat perform on their packages; I've just emerged the latest GNOME beta snapshot and compiled with -09 -fomit-instructions, and it only crashes once every few hours."

"Let's face it, Gentoo is the future."
"OK, so no serious business is going to even consider Gentoo in the near future, and even with proper support and QA in place, it'll still eat up far too much of a company's valuable time. But this guy I met on #animepr0n is now using it, so it must be growing!"

RichBa5tard 3rd March 2004 13:27

I found that post at /. rather bashing than funny. What's your point?

jmke 3rd March 2004 13:44

I don't make points :)

AngeluS 5th March 2004 16:02

Can't wait to read your Howto manual RB.
Wanna try Gentoo too, now i just installed Mandrake but man. I don't like to be a noob and that's what i still am with Gnu/Linux.

Bosw8er 23rd April 2004 23:11

good read :

http://www.overclockers.com/tips00571/

DUR0N 24th April 2004 10:30

score!
eurhm, i mean...funny :)

RichBa5tard 24th April 2004 15:09

To sum up the article linux will never conquer the market because Joe Sixpack does not want to do any effort to learn howto work with linux.

That's true. But if you talk to linux/GNU developpers that's not their goal. They aim at 30 - 40% market share: the users who use their pc daily.

To be honest I think most users overrate how hard linux is to install. Take the following example:
My future brother in law bought a new computer and wanted to install an OS. As he wanted to give linux a try too, I gave him Mandrake OS 10 and WinXP.

WinXP didn't dedect his sata drive at install. I had to tell him download and make a floppy disk with his sata controller drivers, and press F6 at install so windows could dedect his drive. After installation, his screen was at a crappy low resolution (gf fx not supported out of the box), he coudn't get on the net (nforce not supported) and he never got USB2.0 to work for some reason. He also had to install a decent virusscanner and be aware for spyware.

After winxp he gave Madrake 10 a try. No drivers asked (kernel 2.6 has native support for most NICs, harddiskcontrollers, ...) and without he asking me one question he was able to get a fully running linux system. Don't tell me Windows installation is noob-proof!

FreeStyler 25th April 2004 23:17

The main reason linux won't conquer the market is just about every OEM dealer.
People just love their preinstalled, no fuss Dell, compaq-HP, medion... PC.

Linux isn't hard to install. I did it from the first time. THEN is when the fun starts:
- Hey ma look, I installed linux.
+ That sweet honey, now what can you do with it.
- Uh, nothing, but I installed it all by myself.
+ That's very good sweety, now get the damn thing off so I can print my M$ WORD document...

Oh and using a newer kernel then the latest windows release, should indeed fix some driver issues. When SP2 comes out, the playing field will be leveled and that discussion kan be started the other way around. Untill the new linux kernell comes up.... etc. etc. etc.

Linux and windows just can't be compared. Linux has a limited use, both in desktop and server market. They do best for smaller servers, and in the freak area of desktop use.
Windows just has a massive userbase that get's a splitting headache if even 0.1% incompatibility is bothering them.
The fact that linux is free, and windows costs abotu 100$, and most people still use windows does mean it's doing something good (even if it's only marketing)

RichBa5tard 25th April 2004 23:38

Using OpenOffice is as easy as using MS Office, it just depends which one you learned to use first.

Surfing is easier in Linux with Mozilla (no popups / vriri) than in WinXP with ie (spyware & viri everywhere)

Mailing is equally easy, mozilla mailer is better than Outlook express, but lacks the features of Outtlook. Then again, no risk of virusses.


I'm not a linux / opensource nut. Not everything has to be free, but many people underestimate the user friendlyness of latest linux distro's.

Heck, my girlfriend and her brother use linux, and they're anything but pc enthousiasts. They prefer the UI of Gnome 2.6 above windows and it consumes less resources on their computer.

TeuS 26th April 2004 06:48

Quote:

Originally posted by FreeStyler
Linux and windows just can't be compared. Linux has a limited use, both in desktop and server market. They do best for smaller servers, and in the freak area of desktop use.
Windows just has a massive userbase that get's a splitting headache if even 0.1% incompatibility is bothering them.
The fact that linux is free, and windows costs abotu 100$, and most people still use windows does mean it's doing something good (even if it's only marketing)

- guess how many people actually PAY for windows
- it's not the best because it's popular
- afaik, the internet is built on *nix servers. this madshrimps.be server runs on Debian, and they'll have a very good reason for that

NipSo 29th April 2004 21:01

Quote:

I'm already writing a Gentoo 4 dummies howto.
Richbastard do you know of a guide where every stage install is explained apart from eachother...
I truely hate the online manual ... everything is messed up and not noob friendly at all ...
had no problems installing and using slackware 9.1 though ...

Sarcastro 3rd May 2004 20:15

Re: linux revolution?
 
Quote:

Originally posted by RichBa5tard
[i]For those who haven't tried it, what's keeping you back? For those who did but switched back to windows. why? Have you got a legal Win / Office license?
Well, hearing you talking about Gentoo irl so enthausiastically (no, you go and spell that ;D) I decided to try it. At a lan I leeched Gentoo (I think it was 2 iso's) which is legal, YAY opensource! Being the planner that I am I first decided to read the full guide of howto install gentoo so I wouldn't encounter any nasty surprises. First I discovered I wasn't going to able to install it in the first place because I had the wrong version for my proc. Don't really have an opinion on that, I am just happy that I'm using a certain OS now that kinda autodetects that. Second I kinda got thrown off by the fact the manual had technical words and expressions in it which I did not have to foggiest clue in the world on what they were about. I don't see myself as a total noob when it comes to 'puters nor English but still I had never heard of many expressions which the manual took for granted that the reader would know. Probably never expected me to read it, or read for that matter.

So installing Gentoo has gone to the "not so near projects" folder in my brain. Still very much willing to try though.

FreeStyler 3rd May 2004 20:49

erm, isn't windows only X86 certified.

The only point of any other-then-X86 linuxes is because linux actually gets used in a server enviroment with possible different CPU types. It's also PC-MAC compatible.

I tried it too, and came to the conclusion that it's great for servers, if you have studied lunux or have a lot of time to mess with it. It's usable in a strickt desktop enviroment (at the office, with a good sysadmin). Just don't try to play any real games on it (solitaire is not a real PC game)


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